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Tangent Wave 2 Support and Tangent remap options


agonzalez@sgo.es
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That sounds weird. Are you on a Mac or PC for that?

In theory the Tangent Elements and Wave 2 should be quite similar in that regard as they go through same mapper. I've had no problems with it.

You do mention Resolve connecting to it in the interim causing issues. I had some cases lately where Resolve doesn't completely die. Even though it looks like the app is closed, if you look in the task manager there is still a process hanging around that I have to kill. So maybe that is your issue - that some other app still is attached to it, and that's what the reboot clears out? I think the Tangent Mapper you can also see if an app is still attached, can't you?

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On 3/5/2020 at 3:52 PM, Rakesh Malik said:

Scratch and Mistika both work well with the Tangent panel, and I've always thought that Scratch's mapping was quite good... until I got it working with Mistika. Now the Scratch mapping, as deep as it is, feels a lot less elegant ?

 

It makes me so happy when I see hard work has rewards for Mistika users ???

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On 2/29/2020 at 8:22 AM, Cristobal Bolaños said:

Hi guys!

Sorry for the late reply. 

 

How come? Have you tried to simply reboot the Wave2 by unpluggin and pluggin the device again? Let me know a bit more about this please!

Thanks! Wave2 is actually a really cool tangent product. It totally fills the gap between the Arc and the  Elements. 

Actually, there is a use for those buttons. Maybe it wasn't mapped when this post was created, but it is with the current built in mapping:

 

image.png.46e0baedf153c6b49b579972ced8f7f4.png

The F buttons are mapped for the presets. This is how they work:

- Once you have different FX Presets created, you can assign them a specific number by pressing the button with the Alternative button also pressed.

- Now they have a number assigned, whenever you are on a Color Grade node and click on the F number button, the color grade will be replaced with the FX preset.

This tool is really quick and is great for matching shots, and also for tryng out different look. Although for the latter, it is bes to use the histories.

 

The Up and Down buttons are mapped for the historys:

- The Bring Newer moves to the next hsitory, and has the alternative function of Creating a Version.

- The Bring Older moves to the previos history, and has the alternative function of Deleting a Version.

That way you can both easily navigate trough your historys, create them and delete them with only two buttons. 

 

If you ever have any doubts, you can go to the Tangent mapping software and it will be easier to see the specific function of the buttons. Also, don't forget that is fully customizable ?

 

Cheers,

Cristóbal 

 

 

Ah, OK, thank you for clarifying. I was grading last night in Mistika and finally opened the Tangent Mapper and saw that, indeed, F1-F9 are for presets. 

I was thinking of changing them to printer lights, though. Maybe top row is RGB, second is CMY. And holding alt is (minus) those same lights. 

Is it possibly to get the alt button to behave more like caps lock? Tangent limitation? It's actually not so ergonomic to press and hold the alt key and press another button on the panel. Especially when holding a stylus, it becomes a big operation. I really wish alt was a toggle. 

Also, is it possible to make the play button stay in the loop of a particular shot in the visual editor? One thing that bugs me is when I'm working on a particular shot, I grade it, was to see how it plays, and the playhead goes to the next shot on the timeline even though I intend to loop the shot I've been working on. 

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On 3/12/2020 at 12:30 AM, jeff@dungeonbeach.com said:

Is it possibly to get the alt button to behave more like caps lock? Tangent limitation? It's actually not so ergonomic to press and hold the alt key and press another button on the panel. Especially when holding a stylus, it becomes a big operation. I really wish alt was a toggle. 

I agree that the way the 'A' (alt) button works is awkward in some cases. That works if you have both hands on the panel, but I often work with one hand on the mouse/pen or keyboard and the other on the panel. If 'A' was a toggle (or could be preferenced into a toggle) that would be nice. Not just on the Wave2 but also on the big Elements.

Edited by jan1
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On 3/5/2020 at 6:58 AM, jan1 said:

That sounds weird. Are you on a Mac or PC for that?

In theory the Tangent Elements and Wave 2 should be quite similar in that regard as they go through same mapper. I've had no problems with it.

You do mention Resolve connecting to it in the interim causing issues. I had some cases lately where Resolve doesn't completely die. Even though it looks like the app is closed, if you look in the task manager there is still a process hanging around that I have to kill. So maybe that is your issue - that some other app still is attached to it, and that's what the reboot clears out? I think the Tangent Mapper you can also see if an app is still attached, can't you?

You've seen my posts on LGG... you should know I haven't been wasting money on fruit machines ?

Does Resolve even use the Tangent mapper? I was under the impression that it didn't, which prevented anyone from updating the mediocre Resolve implementation.

I haven't verified yet, but I think that you might be right with that theory. Resolve likes to fake exit, but if I don't go looking for it, I don't see it floating around in the task manager. And while I've had a couple of cases where I spun up Mistika and had to restart it to get it to connect to my panel, that's been rare -- unless I'm going back and forth between Mistika and Resolve. And I haven't run into anything like this bouncing between Mistika and Scratch. It makes Scratch and Mistka a nice pair; Scratch is great for dailies, which Mistika isn't, and I haven't figured out how to automate what I do in Scratch using Workflows yet.

 

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On 3/12/2020 at 9:12 AM, Rakesh Malik said:

Does Resolve even use the Tangent mapper? I was under the impression that it didn't, which prevented anyone from updating the mediocre Resolve implementation.

Yes, it still uses it. Just in a lock-down mode where you can't customize the mapping.

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On 3/12/2020 at 9:12 AM, Rakesh Malik said:

Scratch is great for dailies, which Mistika isn't, and I haven't figured out how to automate what I do in Scratch using Workflows yet.

Actually Mistika should be good for dailies. It has the ability to render out individual clips in the Output page. 

Bring in all the media, create a string out, add a color node on one clip, make adjustments. Copy node, select all other nodes and paste, which will automatically create individual copies for each clip. Render out as individual clips. Done. If you need to make smaller adjustments for different reels, or scenes, the storyboard and propagate functions would make this pretty easy.

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On 3/12/2020 at 9:52 PM, jan1 said:

If you need to make smaller adjustments for different reels, or scenes, the storyboard and propagate functions would make this pretty easy.

Was just playing with that. The simpler way of doing that for dailies, is actually not Propagate (as there are no meta-data filters), but Match & Paste. Do the base correction for your dailies and paste to everything. Then to do for example reel based tuning, refine one clip for the reel, copy, and then match & paste based on reelname. That is also great if you need to match two cameras.

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On 3/12/2020 at 5:30 AM, jeff@dungeonbeach.com said:

Is it possibly to get the alt button to behave more like caps lock? Tangent limitation? It's actually not so ergonomic to press and hold the alt key and press another button on the panel. Especially when holding a stylus, it becomes a big operation. I really wish alt was a toggle. 

 

Yes, it is indeed possible. However,  I'm afraid that the Wave2 has some limitations. Let me explain this trough, please. 

You can create a different bank on the Tangent Mappers, by left clicking on the caption and then selecting "Add Bank At End". As in this screenshot:

397231634_Screenshot2020-03-15at19_17_27.png.6598a8645b80aa11588abe026a7a960c.png

 

Then, if you want to move between the different bank, you need to use a button to put the "Next Trackellball bank" functionality. I guess that the best button for this would be the "ALT" one:

 

1795643728_Screenshot2020-03-15at19_18_53.png.83d75d573bbaf14954b53eb92c485d81.png

 

Now, whenever you click on Alt, it will navigate to the next bank, acting soft of as a Cap button in the keyboard. As you suggested. 

However, and this is when the limitation comes, in Wave2 you can only create different banks for the Buttons and Knobs  of the upper side of the Tangent. As you can see in the following screenshot, I have created another bank for them, so they look empty:

414683354_Screenshot2020-03-15at19_23_32.png.50526f74321c34ea01619c114326239c.png

 

You can see in the right part of the Wave, where the Histories, Presets and and the Shuttle functionalities are mapped, you cannot create different banks, as well as in the Color Wheels. 

Probably, to sort out this inconvenience, it is as simple as mapping the Printer Lights in the F buttons when you are working on the Primaries Tab. And leave if for the FXPresets when you are working on the rest of the color tabs (bands, curves...etc). What do you guys think about that? ?

Regarding the fact that the "Alt" does not work as a toggle, rather than a modificator of the functions while you are pressing it: 

I'm afraid , when I was designing this mapping, I wasn't ware of that capability of the Tangent Mapper of creating additional banks, until I did some research and discover it. Besides, unfortunately, there's not "B" button as you can fin in the Element tangents. That's why I used the "ALT" button for the Alternative buttons. That indeed, as you say, can be a bit more cumbersome to work, specially if you are at the same time working with the Pen Tablet. Probably it's for the best that we change the mapping, and we leave it the same, although instead of Alternative function, we use that button to native to the "Next button bank. Do you guys think this is best for the Wave2 mapping? 

On 3/12/2020 at 5:30 AM, jeff@dungeonbeach.com said:

Also, is it possible to make the play button stay in the loop of a particular shot in the visual editor? One thing that bugs me is when I'm working on a particular shot, I grade it, was to see how it plays, and the playhead goes to the next shot on the timeline even though I intend to loop the shot I've been working on.

Yes, you can press the "Loop" button to do so, which is in the Visual Editor. Then, whenever you put some Playmarks (shortcut: W) on a shot or group of shots, it will be looped.

 

2125469665_Screenshot2020-03-15at20_27_21.png.45994f485f92c86e9e657de6125fd523.png


I hope you find all this information useful!

Cheers,

Cristóbal 

 

Screenshot 2020-03-15 at 20.24.26.png

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As I said in the previous post, I have created a Mapping that contains the Printer Lights mapped on the F buttons when you are working in the Primaries tab. You can find it attached in this post ?

Let me know if you like the mapping more that way.

Screenshot 2020-03-15 at 20.24.26.png


Cheers,

Cristóbal 

 

 

 

Tangent_Mapping_Wave2_PrinterLightsModification_v01.xml

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Hi Cristobal, thank you for the updated mapping. I tried it. I like it better. To me it makes more sense to use the function keys as printer lights because of their unique 3x3 button layout. And because, when I do put down my stylus and use both hands on the Wave2, I like to use as much of the panel as possible for tactile grading functionality. 

Possibly it would be nice if the F-keys could stay as printer lights even when in "Bands," but I'm not sure; I'm gonna try the current setup for a bit.

Are there keyboard shortcuts for the presets (and histories)? 

Another idea, maybe strange...

If the F keys are printer lights, then you kinda don't need "dials" for Level R, Level G, Level B." That's already accomplished by the printer lights. 

So potentially those three knobs are up for grabs in the Primaries bank.

It would actually be awesome if they were the Saturation, All Contrast, and All Hue from the bands page, but adjusting them didn't switch the GUI to bands...

Let me explain.

When doing a primary grade, it is nice to juggle "input saturation" vs. "post saturation." Right now we have to jump between bands and primaries to juggle these very different controls. Would be amazing to have them next to each other. Likewise with contrast -- contrast in Primaries is linear, which is awesome, but sometimes you want S-curvey contrast so you don't blow your highlights and crush your blacks. 

This would also make it so you don't have to hit "alt" when in bands to get to "pre-sat." That's actually one of the pain points for me using the alt button on the panel as a modifier and not a toggle. I guess I feel like it's too many steps to get to "Sat-All" - first hit bands, then hit alt, then adjust.

I'll experiment if I get a chance.

Jeff

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On 3/13/2020 at 6:00 PM, jeff@dungeonbeach.com said:

Are there keyboard shortcuts for the presets (and histories)? 

Yes, they are pretty simple to use!

They FX Presets shorcuts are the following:

FX Presets    
Create           T
Maximixe    Control+PageUp
Def               Control+KeyboardNumber
DefTemp     Alt+KeyboardNumber
OnTop         Control+Alt+KeyboardNumber
Use               Keyobard NUmber Assigned 
Maximixe    Control+PageUp
    

The thing is, you define a number for the FX presets with Control+KeyBoardNumber, let's say 1. You'll see the number as an overlay in the FX presets tab:

image.png.fc8f525888d4a4460db5f603ec31393b.png

Then, when you play 1, or 2, the preset will be applied on the Shot you are positioned. This is they way it also works for the buttons in the Wave2 ?

The history keyboard shortcuts are the following:
  
Histories    
Create        Enter
Previous    Control+Down
Next           Control+Up

You'll see in the StoryBoard an overlay of the number and current history.

image.png.c7f8c4533595804f85042b4636b21985.png

 

By the way, @jan1 created this Forum Post, compiling some of the key ones for reference in a Google Sheet:

 

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@jeff@dungeonbeach.com, regarding your last matter regarding the possibility of having the Printer Lights on the Bands, or the Post Sat function on the Bands tab as well, I think there's on caveat.

Mistika's Color Toosls are organised on a way that helps you with a natural workflow during your creative work: first the primaries, the bands for secondary color grading and so on. Of course, this is variable, and Mistika freedom lets you define whichever workflow you are more pleased with.

However, I think there's a problem if we'd map function in the Bands that belong to the Primaries (and viceversa). That can be hazardous, because you lose track of what's been changed. I reckon you need to see how much you're changing  the value at the same time you're watching the image. 

It's impossible to have "one  tangent mapping to rule them all", in other words, a solution for an user could be a problem for another, that's precisely why there's the possibility to custom mapping. Let us kwow if you happen to find any trouble when doing your own mapping, we'll happily help?

What do you think behalf this?

Cheers,

Cristóbal 

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Hi everyone,

So, following your feedback,  we've come to the solution that the "Alternative" function is not a great tool for the Wave2 tangent mapping, because it makes it a bit cumbersome to work, specially if you work with a Pen tablet. So, the Alt button should work as a toggle between the different banks, in other words, as the "Next Trackerball Bank", as if it were the "B" button of the Element tangent. 

However, there's a major problem, since we cannot create different banks for the Color Wheels, we won't be able to to use the "Alternative button" to access the  Soft Clip color wheel in the Primaries tab, and the Blacks and White color wheels in the Bands tab. There are two possible solutions that I can think off:

Solution 1:

- Leave the "ALT" button for the Alternative function, because it is easy to identify for possible future users.

- Find another button to work as the "Next Trackerball Bank". Probably one of the navigation buttons.

Pros: We have both the "Alt" and the "Next bank" buttons.
Cons: We may have to lose one of the navigation button.  Maybe, the curves (since curves probably will need the action of the mouse/pen one way or another)?

Solution 2:

 - Use the "ALT" button for the "Next Trackerball Bank"".

- To access the Soft Clip color wheel of the Primarias, and the Black and White color wheel of the Bands, create new modes for the Primaries and Bands respectively, that contains those color wheel tools that we may have lost.

Pros: We always use the "ALT" as a toggle.
Cons: It can be a bit messy to have two different Primaries and Bands tab.

 

What do you think it would be the best solution?

Looking forward to your replies!

Cheers,

Cristóbal 

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On 3/13/2020 at 10:57 PM, Cristobal Bolaños said:

@jeff@dungeonbeach.com, regarding your last matter regarding the possibility of having the Printer Lights on the Bands, or the Post Sat function on the Bands tab as well, I think there's on caveat.

Mistika's Color Toosls are organised on a way that helps you with a natural workflow during your creative work: first the primaries, the bands for secondary color grading and so on. Of course, this is variable, and Mistika freedom lets you define whichever workflow you are more pleased with.

However, I think there's a problem if we'd map function in the Bands that belong to the Primaries (and viceversa). That can be hazardous, because you lose track of what's been changed. I reckon you need to see how much you're changing  the value at the same time you're watching the image. 

It's impossible to have "one  tangent mapping to rule them all", in other words, a solution for an user could be a problem for another, that's precisely why there's the possibility to custom mapping. Let us kwow if you happen to find any trouble when doing your own mapping, we'll happily help?

What do you think behalf this?

Cheers,

Cristóbal 

I completely understand. Please don't worry about changing the default mapping to accommodate having "pre-sat" and "post-sat" on the same Wave2 page. I was just thinking out loud that those are two functions I like to juggle for creative purposes, sometimes with one hand on each knob. Dialing down "pre-sat" lets you subdue the original colors in a scene (skin tones, different production design colors), while Post-sat lets you boost the strength of whatever colors you have added. So it's a way to control the overall strength of the color grade vs. what was captured on set.

Speaking of workflow, I do think it's a little more logical to first deal with "pre-sat" on the primaries and "post-sat" as a secondary (in bands), but that's just how I work as a colorist. I understand you need to have "Post-sat" on the Primaries page for CDL compliance, so we're kind of stuck the way it is. It's fine.

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On 3/13/2020 at 11:52 PM, Cristobal Bolaños said:

Hi everyone,

So, following your feedback,  we've come to the solution that the "Alternative" function is not a great tool for the Wave2 tangent mapping, because it makes it a bit cumbersome to work, specially if you work with a Pen tablet. So, the Alt button should work as a toggle between the different banks, in other words, as the "Next Trackerball Bank", as if it were the "B" button of the Element tangent. 

However, there's a major problem, since we cannot create different banks for the Color Wheels, we won't be able to to use the "Alternative button" to access the  Soft Clip color wheel in the Primaries tab, and the Blacks and White color wheels in the Bands tab. There are two possible solutions that I can think off:

Solution 1:

- Leave the "ALT" button for the Alternative function, because it is easy to identify for possible future users.

- Find another button to work as the "Next Trackerball Bank". Probably one of the navigation buttons.

Pros: We have both the "Alt" and the "Next bank" buttons.
Cons: We may have to lose one of the navigation button.  Maybe, the curves (since curves probably will need the action of the mouse/pen one way or another)?

Solution 2:

 - Use the "ALT" button for the "Next Trackerball Bank"".

- To access the Soft Clip color wheel of the Primarias, and the Black and White color wheel of the Bands, create new modes for the Primaries and Bands respectively, that contains those color wheel tools that we may have lost.

Pros: We always use the "ALT" as a toggle.
Cons: It can be a bit messy to have two different Primaries and Bands tab.

 

What do you think it would be the best solution?

Looking forward to your replies!

Cheers,

Cristóbal 

Thank you for thinking of these solutions. I see that neither is too ideal. Hmmm. I personally don't control the Curves with a panel but I do know some users are passionate about being able to do that, so best not to alienate them.

Do you have any relationship with the manufacturers of Tangent? Can you possible poke them about adding "Caps-lock" style functionality to the Tangent Mapper software, as an option? Let them know it's important to your customers? I imagine since SGO is selling the Elements as the panel of choice for Ultima (6 panels, no less!), maybe Tangent can help us out here. Because the mapping is pretty good otherwise.

I actually wrote to Andy Knox at Tangent requesting alt = caps lock, but he didn't reply (I wrote about one month ago).

For now maybe I will keep a paperweight near my station and put it on the alt button when I need to lock it.

FWIW, I know in Assimilate Scratch you can get the Alt button to work as "lock" by double clicking it! It's very handy. But Scratch doesn't use the Tangent Mapper to control the Wave2. It uses its internal software interface, which I think maybe pre-dates the Mapper?

Edited by jeff@dungeonbeach.com
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On 3/21/2020 at 6:51 PM, jeff@dungeonbeach.com said:

Speaking of workflow, I do think it's a little more logical to first deal with "pre-sat" on the primaries and "post-sat" as a secondary (in bands), but that's just how I work as a colorist. I understand you need to have "Post-sat" on the Primaries page for CDL compliance, so we're kind of stuck the way it is. It's fine.

The thing is, while the Post-sat (as the name suggests) applies the saturation after the whole process of the primaries, the Sat of the bands work in parallel. Therefore, the post-sat will affect the overwall contrast while the sat in the bands will not affect the luminance, due to the luminance discrimination of the signal in the bands tools. 

 

On 3/21/2020 at 7:09 PM, jeff@dungeonbeach.com said:

Thank you for thinking of these solutions. I see that neither is too ideal. Hmmm. I personally don't control the Curves with a panel but I do know some users are passionate about being able to do that, so best not to alienate them.

Indeed, it will be a big loss, however I don't know how many users control the curves from the tangent, rather than from the mouse. 

 

On 3/21/2020 at 7:09 PM, jeff@dungeonbeach.com said:

Do you have any relationship with the manufacturers of Tangent? Can you possible poke them about adding "Caps-lock" style functionality to the Tangent Mapper software, as an option? Let them know it's important to your customers? I imagine since SGO is selling the Elements as the panel of choice for Ultima (6 panels, no less!), maybe Tangent can help us out here. Because the mapping is pretty good otherwise.

Yes, we have a good relationship. We can give them feedback about the tangent, however, I assume it will be taken as regular feedback. Seeing this from their point of view, I guess it's like when you are mapping, there's no one solution for all the softwares. 

 

Now that you say, we are working on a 4 units mapping for the elements, let me know if you are interested, and you want to give it a try! ?

 

Cheers,

Cristóbal 

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On 3/24/2020 at 7:53 AM, Cristobal Bolaños said:

Indeed, it will be a big loss, however I don't know how many users control the curves from the tangent, rather than from the mouse. 

I do end up using the mouse, but mostly because the panel options are somewhat limited. The knobs on the Tanget do give you a better tactile connection to the changes you make.

The biggest limitation of using the panel with curves is that you can add the default points but you cannot move them horizontally. So you are stuck with the default spacing. Which especially if you're trying achieve roll-off in the shadows or highlights is not helpful. It would be nice to have an option to add a single (or an extra control point) and be able to move it on both axis. I think I would use the panel a lot more for curves then.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Good news! I had written to Andy at Tangent asking if they could implement "Alt-lock," and I just received a reply from him that they did! 

Here's what he said:

Many apologies that it has taken me so long to respond to your enquiry. I wanted to find out what it would take to add this function before I replied, which involved some investigation work. However I’m pleased to say that we have now baked this feature into a Beta release. If you’d like to give it a try then we have the Windows version ready to download here

If you need the Mac version then please let me know and we can build that for you after the Easter weekend.

 

To enable the Alt-lock function for your user, run the Mapper and then File > User Preferences > Enable ALTernate Function Lock

 

A double tap of the Alt button will then latch the Alt function and a single tap will then release it.

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Tangent_Mapping_Wave2_PrinterLightsModification_v02.xml

Hi everyone!

I have tested the new beta for the Tangent Mapping software and it works so great. Can't wait to see what else is coming from Tangent. 

As Jeff said, a couple of quick tapping on the Alt button does the trick. I reckon that solves the issue we were discussing regarding the Wave2.

I though I had to redesign the whole mappping, but actually the only action need is to select that function on the User preferences: 

 image.thumb.png.7ea781676088598bbea221b99432134c.png

 

I did a couple more changes in the Windows and Curve modes. I hope you like them better that way! It's attached in this post. 

I hope you are all safe and sound in this difficult times. 

Cheers to all,
Cristóbal

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Hi Jeff!

Thanks for asking.

Soon the Open Beta will be published. I'm afraid this Beta will not contain a new mapping. Forthcoming betas will be released with the new features added to the mapping, and re-mapped features designed according to the feedback from  several clients, such as Jan Klier, present in this thread.  

Cheers,

Cristóbal 

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